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Tuesday, December 27, 2005

Comments

Mike McG...

"*We* are all postmoderns now."

"Neither the medieval narrative nor the modern narrative, no matter how much their habits of mind persist in our day, meet *our* needs."

Jack, please clarify *we* and *our*. How broad is this circle? If it is small, what obligations attach to membership in the vanguard? If it is nearly universal, how is the resilience of religious observance explained?

I identify with the anomie described here. I suspect many (but surely not all) others drawn to the world of ideas can relate to the experience of disenchantment.

Beyond that...I'm not so sure. We may judge that the masses ought to feel our angst and affirm the emptiness we observe...but do they? We may well judge their narrative to be facing collapse, but do they?

I particularly wonder whether our judgments about the barrenness of contemporary religious belief corresponds with the exeriences of the less well educated, the non-white, the less affluent among us. I find, for example, that the Christian story of salvation retains enormous resonance among the African Americans I encounter.

Is there a risk of our condescending to those who don't share our postmodern sensibilities? Might our deconstuction of premodern/modern belief systems be the agent for the collapse of their plausibility structures?

forestwalker

I’m interested in Jack’s answer, but I’ll give a shot at answering from my perspective.

*We*, as a cultural group, are now all postmodern in the sense that we no longer share nor are we united around the Modern Idea. Many never were, and they (the pre-moderns) continue to beat the dead horse that the rationalists and secularists (the moderns) keep trying to mount. And neither of these two groups are any longer able to meet *our* (human) needs because they both are answering our questions from a perspective that no longer holds relevance to most of us, if it ever did. An increasing number see the absurdity and are either wandering looking for something else to rest their hopes and spirits on or have embraced the absurd and reverted to a soulless competitive instinct or a base comfort or debauchery.

And, yeah, I’d say the shift is now nearly universal in the West though most may be unaware and unable to articulate how their minds are different from their parents’ and grandparents’. The vanguard of this shift in consciousness are long in their graves. They pointed to the fatal flaws in Modernism centuries ago. As for the resilience of religious observance, that speaks to the failure of the Modern and *our* need for Connection and Community with something larger, deeper, and more real than ourselves, a need that has outlasted Materialism.

“We may well judge their narrative to be facing collapse, but do they?”

Probably not, but premoderns definitely feel embattled and threatened. As for moderns, they do, as evidenced by the academy’s embrace of the hyper-modern gobbledy-goop that it’s labeled ‘post-modernism’.

“I particularly wonder whether our judgments about the barrenness of contemporary religious belief corresponds with the exeriences of the less well educated, the non-white, the less affluent among us. I find, for example, that the Christian story of salvation retains enormous resonance among the African Americans I encounter.”

The Christian story of salvation retains enormous—primary—resonance in my own life (and I assume Jack’s) as well. I haven’t understood any of what Jack has said over the last couple of years to imply that the faith narrative is untrue, just that the way it is explicated by those with power and influence within institutional religious bodies no longer resonates with the Mind of our culture.

“Is there a risk of our condescending to those who don't share our postmodern sensibilities? Might our deconstuction of premodern/modern belief systems be the agent for the collapse of their plausibility structures?”

And this would be the hyper-modern gobbledy-goop I was referring to earlier. ;)

Folks are hungry for meaning and for the opportunity to experience and interact with the divine. It’s not about tearing down their beliefs but about forging a path to a place where that interaction with God can be experienced in a way that meets the needs of a postmodern people. If that can be accomplished many will surely choose to follow.

Jack Whelan

Thanks Mike and Forest for your thoughtful posts. I think Mike's questions are good ones that probably a lot of readers of this blog are asking. And there is nothing that I would disagree about in Forest's response, which is in most ways better than the one I was preparing before I read it.

He's too kind to say it, but I think that at the heart of Mike's question is a concern about whether what I'm writing is just another form of intellectual elitism that doesn't really reflect the experience of most ordinary people who are more in touch with reality.

There's the implied question, and it's a legitimate one, about whether the future of Christianity lies with middle-class cosmopolitans or does it lie rather with Christians in Africa and South America, where it could be argued the Church has greater vitality and relevance to the lives of the people who live there.

I have often thought that the future of Christianity in this country could very well lie with the black churches for similar reasons. The Civil Rights Movement and the religious ideals and disciplines that shaped it is for me a model of a spiritually centered politics that the country badly needs. I think the experience in South Africa with Mandela and Tutu are similar, and I am very sympathetic to much of the liberation theology that has emerged out of Latin America.

The one thing that links all of these movements is the experience of suffering and injustice that is the special experience of the dispossessed, and for me it is clear that an authentic Christianity must always at some level be in solidarity with that experience of suffering and struggle.

But that still does not answer the question: Where is it all going? Is this an impossible question to ask? Is Christianity only a religion that has meaning in the context of physical suffering and deprivation? Is the goal to get the poor and dispossessed so that they can live like alienated university types?

Surely there is more than that even if it can never be detached from those who are suffering in this way. That "more" and what it means for our future is what I'm trying to explore in this blog.

forestwalker

Perhaps there's a generational difference. I'm a gen-X'er, come out of a poor working-class family and neighborhood, and grew up in a Pentecostal Holiness church (which, in form and as an institution at least, is about as zombie traditionalist, to use your words, as you can get). I say 'in form' becuase there is genuine community and real transformation going on there in spite of the empty legalism and reactionary and fearful retelling of the Gospel.

But that community and transformation exists, for the most part, only for boomers and older. Of the dozens of kids I grew up with in that church, most of whom are still poor and working class, only a handful are still in church of any kind. And when I speak with them, though they may not speak about it in the way we are here, it's clear that they know deep inside that the church (as they know it) has nothing to say to them or to their children. They have a demanding thirst but perceive the church they grew up in to be a dry well. Ditto for the secular alternatives. I hadn't viewed my observations as much more than anecdotal until recently when I discovered Barna's numbers showing the same thing nationally.

I think your and Mike's concern about elitism is very valid. I sense that my friends will refuse to be led out of the wilderness of their cynicism by any type of traditional leader, autocrat, professor, etc. But they'll follow a saint.

Victoria Silvers

Hi,

This is Victoria Silvers, Asst. Editor for Christian.com which is a social network made specifically for Christians, by Christians, to directly fulfill Christian's needs. We embarked on this endeavor to offer the ENTIRE christian community an outlet to join together as one (no matter denomination) and better spread the good word of Christianity. Christian.com has many great features aside from the obvious like christian TV, prayer request or even find a church/receive advice. We have emailed you because we have interest in collaborating with you and your blog to help us spread the good word. I look forward to an email regarding the matter, Thanks!

God Bless,

Victoria Silvers
vicky.silvers@gmail.com

Vickey Silvers

I am an editor for Christian.com which is a social network dedicated to the christian community. As I look through your web site I feel a collaboration is at hand. I would be inclined to acknowledge your website offering it to our users as I'm sure our Pentecostal audience would benefit from what your site has to offer. I look forward to your thoughts or questions regarding the matter.

Vicky Silvers
vicky.silvers@gmail.com

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