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Thursday, February 15, 2007

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Matt Zemek

Jack,

Another great post. Thanks.

This is just a hunch, but I imagine those of a Harrisite bent might very well raise questions and doubts about the resurrection because of the problem of suffering.

After all, Eusto and many others wary of Christianity rightly and appropriately decry the enormity of suffering caused by Christians on individual and institutional levels throughout the years.

Wrestling with the issue of suffering--its causation, existence and impact--is something to be dealt with here, and it could form the basis for future posts on this or related subjects.

One could deal, for example, with the Franciscan theological worldview that Christmas, not Easter, is the central Christian feast, due to the belief that Jesus' birth and life were "enough," and that the crucifixion and resurrection, while hugely significant, are nevertheless somewhat secondary to the reality of God-become-flesh in the human, created world.

Points to ponder... suffering is a huge key in all of them.

Jack Whelan

Matt--

I'm not sure I understand the question. The commenters like Eusto seemed to be making the argument that religion caused more suffering than good, and therefore cannot be taken seriously. The answer to that of course is that people do all kinds of awful things in the name of religion that have nothing to do with religious ideals, just as people do all kinds of nasty things in the name of love that have nothing to do with love.

Are you asking: Why is there suffering? Isn't that the same question as why is there evil? The quick answer is that suffering is the price we pay for freedom. There is no freedom if there is nothing at stake in the choices we make. If our choices don't have significant consequences, there is no real freedom. Human existence isn't a parlor game.

There's obviously a lot more to be said, and I don't mean to be glib, but that's what it boils down to. If you want to get into it a more expanded way, let me know.

jw

Matt Zemek

Jack,

What I was trying to say was that there are elements of the resurrection narrative (and the crucifixion story that preceded it) which create the idea that Christianity is a religion of suffering, and that the Paschal Mystery ("suffering is redemptive") turn suffering into grace and new life.

The unsaid but implied thrust of what I began to touch on was that some folks might object to Christianity because of a perception that it welcomes suffering into our lives on an overly frequent basis.

Obviously, no one else has yet commented on this thread, but I can only wonder if there are a fair amount of Harrisites who would view the embrace and/or centrality of suffering (be it real or overstated) as a negative element of Christianity.

Here's a summary statement that puts my previous comment into a fuller and more proper perspective: the same "suffering" that results from the mistakes of people could be excessively allowed or tolerated by Christians because of a theology that embraces it too much, relative to the progression from crucifixion/death to resurrection/life.

In other words, Christian theology could be viewed by some as having a self-fulfilling prophecy that is all too quick to allow suffering and, consequently, not rebel forcefully against the spread of suffering when it emerges in the world.

I dare suggest there might be some skeptics of Christianity who feel that a theological connection with suffering (Paschal Mystery) is somewhat intentionally/purposefully tied to pain-causing actions/behaviors from Christian leaders and practitioners. THAT is what I was trying to get at, and I didn't flesh it out enough.

Jack Whelan

Matt--

That's clearer. A couple of thoughts in response: That people suffer and that life is brutal is a given. It's something Americans have done the best job they can to insulate themselves from. But it's a self-evident truth for 99% of human beings who have ever lived.

So it stands to reason that if Christ's mission was to fully submerge himself in the human condition, he would have to experience the whole thing, including the human capacity for brutality.

That to me is the key to the orthodox argument against the Docetists who thought that Christ was just pretending to be human. He just "appeared" to be suffering, but for them it was logically impossible that a divine could suffer. Well suffering is just part of the deal. It's what human beings do, and there's no being human without it. But being Christian means that we help one another through it, that we carry one another's burdens, that we do what we can to alleviate it.

Now I think that there is a kind of perversion of the Christian attitude toward sufferingin in certain imitatio Christi practices in which some Christians think they are being Christlike in identifying with Christ's sufferings with masochistic practices like self-flaggelation, and so on. I think there is a legitimate kind of ascetic practice, but too often it plays into a kind of body hatred that has nothing specifically to do with Christianity.

It has more to do with the human paradox that Ernst Becker explores in his book The Denial of Death, which in shorthand is that humans experience themselves as both angel and beast. It's hard to be both at the same time, to live a life that integrates both, so there's a tendency for people to choose to be one or the other.

There are a lot of religious people, Christian and non Christian alike, who pursue a kind of angelism, and a perverse asceticism is often the result. Nothing could be more non-Christian than body hatred. That's the whole point--the redemption and sanctification of the body, including the earth body (All creation groans and suffers . . . Romans 8:22)

So the pursuit of suffering for its own sake is sickness, but if it is accepted as part of a larger mission of compassion, it is noble. It is only in that sense that an imitatio Christi that embraces suffering is legitimate.

I don't think that should be hard for most Harrisites to understand. It isn't too distant in kind from the kind of noble suffering we soldiers, athletes, and parents willingly embrace on a daily basis. It's not about the suffering, it's about the willingess to pay the price to accomplish the mission.

Matthew

"The quick answer is that suffering is the price we pay for freedom."

That is, if we have freedom. If we don't, of if it is constrained to such a point that it's hard to understand its value, that bit of apologetics falls a little flat.

But I guess that wasn't really the point of your initial post.

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