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Monday, January 21, 2013

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Jonathan

I detect two underlying assumptions here. First (I mean logically prior) is that Liberalism in one form or another is the unquestionable model. American society has always embodied a form of liberalism; it must and will do so going forward. The implication (perhaps I read too much between the lines) is that if this were not the case, it would no longer be American and indeed not even "western" in some way. Second, the de facto dependence on Liberalism as a sociopolitical model is premised on the assumption that there is some consensus on what the "public interest" is. I don't know what the public interest is or should be. The usual assumption, because it's the only thing most people can agree on, is that "interest" here means wealth -- and indeed, Jack, you point out that people praise the capitalist order because it's "the most effective wealth engine the world has ever seen." But surely this is a far cry from the natural rights discourse out of which the concept of liberalism first sprang. In other words, I see a conceptual gap, not just a difference of degree, between Mead's L1.0 and all subsequent iterations. What began as a theological and philosophical idea is now discussed almost exclusively in economic terms. Wealth is all. Now, in no corner of our public discourse is there any space to debate how we should define "wealth," and whether, once defined, it should be regarded as an unquestionably good thing (even assuming its equitable distribution). Until that debate has taken place -- in other words, until we have owned up to our materialism -- Liberalism should not, in my opinion, be an unquestioned and automatic rallying cry in this or any country.

Jonathan

Woops, that first assumption is supposed to be logically secondary. I thought of a more economical way of saying what I want to say: It is almost impossible not to talk about jobs in this country today. (Even the President can't discuss climate change for two seconds without mentioning jobs.) But it's quite impossible to talk about quality of jobs. Because the only thing we can agree on is that people must work (to generate wealth, etc, not for any more profound, metaphysical reason). We can't agree on what good work is. Quantity we get, quality we don't understand.

In the same publication, American Interest, there was a fascinating piece a while ago (I forget the author now) trying to differentiate civil liberties from other social values and forms usually bound up with the word "liberal", such as democratic government and capitalist economics. I think what I was trying to say above is that, culturally, our discussion and use of the concept "Liberalism" has shifted away from civil liberties and towards ideas of government and economics. And yet this has happened even while we've made great, and perhaps the final, strides in the expansion of civil liberties.

Jack Whelan

Liberalism is for me short hand for a complex set of attitudes and ideas that have played a dominant role in shaping the mindset we call modernity. The essential impulse is of rejecting the medieval crown-and-altar complex that dominated during the medieval period, and the drive to find a way of grounding "authority" in something other than tradition, whether it be reason, the popular will, or markets. Whether we like it or hate it, the Liberal complex has dominated our social reality and will continue to do so until something else replaces it.

So I think the 1.0-5.0 scheme is a useful way to think about how the liberal impulse--its ideas and attitudes--have played out over the last 350 years or so.

I don't have a problem with saying what I think is in the public interest, and if I have time this week I'll try to lay that out in another post regarding what I think 5.0 should look like optimally, i.e., what are the ideas and attitudes that I think should emerge to shape our social reality. What I think or say, of course, won't make a difference unless it resonates with what others think and say, and nothing anybody says matters unless it resonates with what I unapologetically call the zeitgeist, which I think of as more than a metaphor.

But whatever impulses drive the move toward a 5.0 paradigm, they will not come out of nowhere. They will develop out of the soil of late modernity. Assuming we avoid catastrophe, there will be new ideas and new impulses; there will be the recovery, rediscovery, or retrieval of old, forgotten impulses, but whatever shape they take in a 5.0 paradigm, they will also be developmentally continuous with the 4.0 paradigm.

I believe in Progress and growth--it defines us as humans, but we have come to think of it in reductionistic materialist terms, so these terms need to be reframed in such a way that it embraces more than just economic development. I suspect that by the end of the century that will have happened, but in the early stages of the 5.0 paradigm, it's not likely that we're ready for a system where economic productivity is going to be divorced from ideas of individual economic self-reliance. Maybe in 6.0.

JP

"The essential impulse is of rejecting the medieval crown-and-altar complex that dominated during the medieval period, and the drive to find a way of grounding "authority" in something other than tradition, whether it be reason, the popular will, or markets."

So, we took a society that was grounded in the authority of the historical and particular and tried to replace it with the authority of somewhat incohate abstractions that were grounded in the ideas of philosophers?

Apparently that doesn't work.

We should try something else.

Preferably something that does work and is grounded in something more associated with actual reality.

Although with grounding authority in the markets, we sure can buy and sell lots of stuff!

Jack Whelan

But it did work; it was by any materialistic standard a phenomenal success. More people live longer healthier lives than at any time in the history of the world. That's not nothing. The problem lies in that with modernity and the liberal complex, there's a profound meaning deficit. And Liberalism doesn't have the resources to solve that problem--at least not within the limits it has set for itself in version 4.0. I'd argue that versions 1.0-3.0 were pretty sterile in the meaning department as well. They were living off the capital of premodern meaning complexes that hadn't quite died.

JP

Of course capitalism (the market) worked. It's a wonderful tool over shorter time periods and is extremely flexible.

However, it just happens to be delusional over the longer time periods because the present has greater value than the future and cannot account for any externalities.

Even as a materialist tool, it fails because the only infinite truly safe energy source we have is the sun.

Here's Jeremy Grantham's 4Q letter (productivity chart on page 6):

http://www.gmo.com/websitecontent/JG_LetterALL_11-12.pdf

The problem is that it was a phenomenal success *because it was some sort of technological/social bubble*.

Malthus wasn't exactly wrong. He was early.

In any event, we've gone into massive materialism overshoot *because* of our meaning deficit.

Jack Whelan

Growth is essential for human flourishing. The key is to define what you mean by growth. So I get what the Zero Growth folks are after, but I think it's rhetorically ineffective approach. We need growth and innovation, we just need to redefine what that means for us. Growth ought not to mean just getting wealthier.

Capitalism is what it is. Even Marx recognized it as a positive progressive development. But it's wrong to think that we should just leave it alone and let it do its thing. The challenge, rather, is to harness its robust potentials for innovation in such a way that it serves human needs, not just investor needs.

And as Dan Pink points out in his important book 'Drive: The Surprising Truth about What Motivates Us", financial rewards just aren't that important when it comes to motivating innovation. A L5.0 social framework will need to work with that basic understanding. More on that another day.

JP

"Growth is essential for human flourishing. The key is to define what you mean by growth. So I get what the Zero Growth folks are after, but I think it's rhetorically ineffective approach."

The question is whether we are going to "zero growth" whether we want it or not.

Growth is essential, but the problem is that we've had massive materialistic overexpansion without the corresponding increase in the growth of purpose, so to speak.

I came to this entire analysis because I was interested in investing.

I suppose I ended up where I am because I was looking for meaning/purpose.

Russ Mitchell/Happycrow

Jack,

I was referred here by JP, after having written on the same subject. It's a nice article, and I agree with much of it. Here's the part I have a problem with:

"But it did work"

Note the past tense. 4.1-style technocracy always came with a cost -- a large one -- in terms of personal choices and people whose dreams were sacrificed on the altar of progress (the Schechter case being only one of the most dramatic). That was acceptable in the 20th century, because, in fact, it DID work.

It's not working now.

Everywhere one looks, those sections of the country which have most retained that strong counter-balance and ability to exercise counter-private command for which you advocate are precisely those areas which are failing, and failing most rapidly. (In stark contrast to avowedly less heavy-handed but equally liberal areas: California vs. Oregon/Washington is one instructive example -- unless you're in one of the wealthy enclaves, California's schools are now almost as bad as the worst of the Deep South)

I'm not going to argue for 3.0; there was a lot wrong with that. What the Reaganites got right was their return (ironically!) to the Wisconsin Idea -- the Progressive notion of allowing states to flexibly implement solutions, and, as Braindeis put it, and 4.1 holdouts now deride it, to make every state a "laboratory of Democracy." I agree with this, because it's quite clear that we need policy innovation, and that means we're going to have strikeouts on our way to finding a solution (Tennessee's badly-flawed health system, which was repealed, contra that of Massachusetts which formed much of the impetus towards the ACA, would be a good example). The Wisconsin Idea lets us minimize the damage along the way.

My approach is different: the promise of Liberalism 5.0 isn't that the state gets weakened, but that it can be made considerably more nimble -- it can combat imbalance/injustice from the private sector with laser surgery instead of amputation. Application of technology can liberate us both from the threat of monolithic, overpowering private threats, and from the "deadening hand" of outdated and sometimes harmful 4.1-style technocracy.

Jack Whelan

Russ--

Nimbleness, yes, and as my advocacy for subsidiarity suggests, always local and private sector solutions first rather than centralized ones. (Did you read my more recent piece on localism/centralization?) But I don't know what you mean by not weakening the state but making it more nimble. Please explain or refer me to something that explains. I'm all for nimbleness, but tell me how your nimbleness model will deal with climate change and with the tendency of private sector actors to aggregate power and wealth.

You spend a lot of time talking about what a mess 4.1 has made of things, but I'm inclined to look at the cause of the mess coming from 3.0 types on a mission to dismantle 4.1 regressively. Move things forward, yes. Make gov't more nimble yes. But don't return us to the era of the Robber Barons, which is where in fact we are because of Reagan's "transformative" leadership couple with compliance from neoliberal (i.e., 3.0) Democrats.

I am really open to any interesting thinking on this, but I'm not seeing a lot of it. I'm seeing a lot of people who think they are cutting edge (Aspen Institute elite types) who are really just providing warmed-up 3.0 thinking. For me one of the most interesting people on the scene right now, imo, is Jerry Brown. Is there anybody you'd point to?

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