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Sunday, February 24, 2013

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Jonathan

"To live one's life centered either on fear or on desire is to live in a way that has nothing to do with the spirit of Christianity. Nothing could be clearer to me."

I have to take issue with that. I'm with you on the fear part. But desire? My understanding of Christianity and of faith more abstractly, is that they are deeply and beautifully bound up with desire. I believe Christopher Dawson said the religious man is the true man of desire. It depends on what you mean by desire, of course. If you mean egotistical covetousness, lust, that sort of thing, then maybe. . . but even then, I don't know. Faith is the highest passion, says Kierkegaard, and I believe him. A complete human being, Dawson's 'religious man,' is a creature of passions. Ruling them is one thing, but denying and dampening them is another. People like Harris terrify me because they seem to want to turn us all into robotic creatures, retaining our rationality but evacuating us of passion. Maybe I'm wrong-headed, but I would rather live in a passionate world than a just one, if I had to choose. I would rather live in a world overflowing (dangerously, contentiously) with love than one in which we all politely observe each other's rights. Love frequently tramples on rights and eschews prudence. Christianity is the great religion of love, and you don't get love without desire for all kinds of things -- for transcendence, sure; for justice, maybe; but above all for each other and the good things of creation. To put it in the terms with which you end: If we desire the Real, then desire IS real.

Steve Allison

Throughout my life I've been faithful in attendance to the conservative church of my heritage and moderately active, though always avoiding disclosure of my philosophical and ideological doubts and differences. There has always been a side of me that sees things similar to Dawkins and Harris. Have always wrestled with this inner Dawkins. I read an article some time ago titled something like "Thank God for the New Atheists" by Michael Dowd that makes some good points about what the new atheists are accomplishing. "Cyborg Selves" by J. Thweat-Bates discusses different visions, approaches and issues related to how humans will change themselves. There is no doubt that humans will be moving to a transhuman or cyborg future. It is inevitable as long as we continue to develop technologically. We will have choices on how to handle it and what directions to take it. Apart from civilization collapse, it will happen in my opinion.

Jack Whelan

@Jonathan--You're right. The problem is that there isn't in English a word to distinguish lust from desire in this other sense to which you point. And words like concupiscence just sound bizarre in a post-Freudian world. Lower desire vs. higher desire? instinctual desire vs. transcendent desire? Narcissistic desire vs. the desire for communion? Don't know how to solve that one. I think that part of the problem is not to see fear and desire as I describe it here as "evil", but as a normal aspect of being human, but a normal that we can move beyond in the sense of not being ruled by them. That's why lust and concupiscence don't work, because of their overly pejorative connotations

@Steve--I think the main thing that defines us as human is a fundamental receptivity to information that comes from outside the materialist system, so to say. In more traditional language, we remain human to the degree that we are open to grace; we become dehumanized to the degree that we are closed to it.

You don't have to be particularly religious to be responsive to grace, and there have been plenty of religious people who were closed to it. The sadducees and pharisees of the gospels are a paradigm there, the ones whom Jesus called whited sepulchers.

I agree with you that the human future is one way or the other a cyborgian future, and while this will confront us with all kinds of problems, as long as the technology we use does not cut us off from transcendence or close us within a materialistic shell, I don't have a problem with that. The problem with the transhuman types is not their obsession with technological liberation, but their attenuated materialistic imagination about what that liberation ought to look like.

Jonathan

http://americamagazine.org/issue/article/shape-church-come

Jack, I can't tell, maybe this piece is not as substantive as I think (it could definitely have been more concise), but it seems good to me, and in tune with your way of thinking -- and this from the Jesuits. I'm thinking of your (or Bonhoeffer's) "religionless church", an idea I don't quite get in this fallen, human, necessarily formal and institutional world. In this article you'll even find a single instance of the key word "subsidiarity." And I like it above all because it doesn't immediately, in addressing the topic of a renewed Church, fall all over the role of women and sexual mores -- not that those aren't hugely important issues, but they are secondary to profounder problems, a logical fact which few reform-minded people of any persuasion seem to bother mentioning.

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