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Saturday, February 02, 2013

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Comments

Jonathan

I have two questions.

How does any system of exchanging and distributing material wealth -- past present or future -- produce metaphysical values (beyond social prestige)?

What is the source of fear so great that it clogs our entire cultural life? Perhaps we fear the answer to my first question? It's been called the Age of Anxiety before. . .

Jack, please don't tell me you think the way to end the Age of Anxiety is with "better" capitalism. Creating value is exactly what capitalism does that no other system has ever done as efficiently. If anything, there is too much value in the world now, and it is all too little believed in, because it is too unbelievable.

Jack Whelan

Dude, people have got to live. What kind of system do you think can manage that on a massive sustainable scale. Clearly not one where profit maximization is the core value; clearly not one where subsistence is good enough. I'm all for exploring one in which "creating value" is the core mission, because then at least you can talk about what value means, and you can start talking about an developing an innovative economy that serves human needs, not just investor needs.

JP

Capitalism's problem is that it can't deal with the tragedy of the commons and that it discounts the future to effectively zero.

Russ

JP -- that is *also* the problem with 4.1. 4.1 has a pretty bad track record regarding the Commons.

Jack -- I think you're asserting what should be demonstrated/proven regarding 3.0 and systems integration. Your own links regarding the Governor and the devolution of decision-making to the lowest-possible unit which can make them (eventually, in most cases, the citizen), itself seems to support a synthesis rather than a rejection of these ideas.

Jack Whelan

Russ--

See my posts on Localism and Centralization http://afterthefuture.typepad.com/afterthefuture/2013/01/finding-the-balance-between-centralization-and-localism.html,
and the one I posted today on Blue Millennials: http://afterthefuture.typepad.com/afterthefuture/2013/02/blue-millennials-in-red-states.html.

I think some degree of bigness is inevitable. That's our reality now and it's not going to change, no matter what Libertarian theory fantasizes about how things might be. The burden is on Libertarians to prove otherwise. And until I'm persuaded otherwise, I see Libertarians as not contributing positively to the discussion, but just playing the role of nuisance in diverting our attention from the more important conversation we should be having about how to grapple with the challenges that bigness poses.

Russ Mitchell/Happycrow

I think that bigness in some arenas is clearly the way it is and will work. Not sure I agree in others -- but I hope you don't think I'm a troll simply because I disagree with you regarding efficacy-vs-scope!

JP

Re: The commons.

The commons are only ever going to be appropriately managed by the people who are directly connected to the commons in some fashion.

I'm not claiming that Liberalism 4.1 does any better with the commons than does capitalism.

In fact, I have never thought about Liberalism 4.1 as Liberalism 4.1 until these series of posts.

I was just pointing out the two major problems with capitalism, which were recently discussed by Jeremy Grantham.

Jack Whelan

Russ--

I don't understand where you're coming from well enough to make any judgments about you, but if the point you're making is that the government sometimes overreaches, and in doing so undermines efficacy, who could disagree. But defining where that overreach begins is a debate reasonable people can have, i.e., where do you define the limits beyond which there is overreach. That's where the thinking gets fuzzy or simplistically binary and triba, thoughl. And that's why I think subsidiarity provides a conceptual framework that defines a middle ground where that debate can take place.

Russ Mitchell/Happycrow

I agree that subsidiarity makes a good framework for debate. We can include libertarians in it by allowing "the citizen" as the lowest level, and then a good-faith discussion should give us an idea what can be done by the individual, what can be public/private partnership/outsourcing, what requires local, county, state, federal levels of government.

My concern would be that subsidiarity may vary from place to place -- there are some cities in Georgia which have outsourced a significant number of city functions and done well. There are other places that have done poorly (thus far, no difference from city halls themselves); but some areas, due to geographic or other constraints, may NEED either public/private partnership, or else NEED serious intervention by the full state government in order to process things effectively.

Seem reasonable so far?

Russ

If that appeals to you, Jack, it gives us the ability to let different locales try out their solutions, and ground them in the most non-ideological, pragmatic grounds: aka, "did it work?"

Jack Whelan

Russ--

Yes. I think the most appealing thing about subsidiarity is that it will vary from place to place precisely because the people making the decisions know best what their community needs rather than government bureaucracies. Will it always be successful? Will it mean that nobody ever makes mistakes? Will local communities sometimes need an intervention from a higher level of government if they are incompetent, corrupt, or abusive. Of course. But the best thing about subsidiarity is that if you trust people to rule themselves, when a problem arises in a particular community, the intervention is designed so solve the problem in that particular community; it needn't be a system wide intervention.

Subsidiarity, if it were understood, would be the primary rationale to reject the absurd government overreach that we have come to know in both Bush's No Child Left Behind and Obama's Race to the Top. I think it's also the chief rationale to argue against the common core.

But when it comes to economics, I think it's perfectly legit for a subsidiarist to be a Keynesian. I am not opposed to the idea of stimulus spending in a recession. I think the government should have the power to break up the banks "too big to fail" and other monopolies, and in financial crises, particularly those created by markets run amok, to step in to set rules to prevent them from happening again, as well as to help the innocents whose lives were damaged by it. I don't see why financial disasters should be treated any differently than natural disasters or military crises. For me common sense and common decency require it, and it's legitimated by subsidiarity.

Russ

Jack,

Agreed all around. Subsidiarity is, in my opinion, where liberal and libertarian meet (Keynesian is another matter, but that's complicated -- Keynes ca. 1924 is *not* Keynes ca. 1940. Just like Hayek, Keynes actively disavowed some of the things he's "credited" for by his erstwhile followers). That said, I don't see a conflict between subsidiarity and Keynesianism, either. While an anarchist would reject the notion of "government as referee," the vast majority of libertarian types have serious problems with top-down diktat, but no problem with the idea of the federal government making sure that the interstate commerce remains fair and free from the "crony capitalism" we tend to see today, which enriches Wall St., but nobody else. "Too big to fail is too big to exist" may offend some of the folks at Forbes, but what you've written here strikes me as very fertile ground for synthesis and future growth of L5.

Jack Whelan

I accept the argument that the banks needed to be bailed out to prevent a system wide implosion, but the only explanation for there not being broken up is cronyism. Cronyism is a real problem, but it's largely something that the electorate is complicit with by re-electing people who clearly have been bought. Why Americans tolerate that in their elected representatives is one of the most depressing things about us as a democracy right now.

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